42 Comments
Wilson
4/7/2015 11:55:46 pm
I think Ataturk is a very good politician. In Allen talks about women abandoning the veil and that more schools have opened for girls, but he doesn't say anything about girls actually attending. Ataturk spoke about men and women both needing to master science and technology and to help society prosper, but he gives no clear examples of this actually happening. He may want women to be more enlightened, but no examples were given of this occurring. To restate my opening sentence, he is an excellent politician.
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pedro
6/9/2018 08:31:21 am
SUCK MY DICC
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Christopher
3/13/2020 12:46:46 pm
Give me a time, date and location ill be there
KHAT
1/30/2021 10:45:46 am
okay daddy ;)
sam
3/28/2022 02:56:04 pm
senpai
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Donna
4/7/2015 11:56:10 pm
Claim: Women,s Status in Turkey DID improve yet, only for that time (1920's)
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Dawn
10/16/2015 12:48:26 pm
Here's the reply
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Emily
1/11/2017 03:16:39 pm
This was really helpful
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Gouge
4/7/2015 11:56:22 pm
A matter of perspective. New schools were opened but it did not say if anyone attended. Also, it appears that some women were able to choose how much they adhered to Sharia Law or not. For decades in the 20th Century, however, Turkey was considered a "moderate" Islamic country.
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Nathan Lyda
4/7/2015 11:56:52 pm
Yes his reforms did improve the status of women. One example from the text is women receiving education and oppurtunities to enter positions in industry and commerce. They also received the right to vote and women actually held parliament seats as early as 1935. Based on this evidence, I can conclude that women's status improved, but not up to our modern standards.
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Karen
4/8/2015 12:02:27 am
The US modern standards? I see no difference. Women entered the workforce during the war. They are now allowed to enter the workforce. The only difference I see is the choice of veil or no veil.
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Donna
4/8/2015 12:07:32 am
I believe Nathan was stating the though it appeared women were given rights to do many things, it was only because MEN were telling them what their "new rights" would be and HOW they would implement them. TODAY women would have a VOICE in that discussion. Modern times would mean women would determine their own equality not men
Kourtney
4/7/2015 11:57:27 pm
Considering together that Document C does improve the status of straight women who are able to reproduce and are doing so and that Document B at least recognizes that women being successful in society is essential to the society itself being successful, one could argue that Ataturk's reforms do improve the lives of women. Because Ataturk also advocates gendered roles for women as it applies to women in the workforce, women in the home, and women as mothers, one could also say that total equality is being neither advocated for nor is it being established by Ataturk and that his reforms are an attempt to placate women and gain political clout.
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Rebecca
4/7/2015 11:58:11 pm
The most logical conclusion we can draw from this evidence is that the status of women was improved because Ataturk states "our women must be more enlightened, more intellectual and more learned than men". Society depends on the virtues that the mother will instill in her children and according to Ataturk the future of Turkey depends on these teachings.
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Terri Downing
4/7/2015 11:58:12 pm
The status of women in Turkey did not change in any significant way. According to Ataturk's speech in 1923 (Document C)," the most important duty of [women] is to be good mothers." That would not indicate any change in the status of women. In another speech (Document B), Ataturk says that "women should not only carry out their duties, but they should also take part in efforts for the prosperity and welfare of the society." Taken together, we can conclude that a woman's place was in the home, and their part in promoting the prosperity and welfare of the society was Republican motherhood.
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Whitney
4/7/2015 11:58:17 pm
Yes in regards to more schooling for women. Other than that, the reforms he instituted are not clearly defined in the sources chosen. Ataturk's speeches were vague with no clear structure of the reforms. The removal of veils would appear a positive reform, but from the video clip, it seemed that the women were unhappy. The choice legally wasn't a choice when it came to society.
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Karen
4/7/2015 11:58:39 pm
Ataturk's reforms did not actually improve the status of women in Turkey. Based on the video, which was posted in 2011, women are still controlled by the male figure of the family. The wearing of the veil is simply not required by law. Women's choice is still a moot point.
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Terri Downing
4/8/2015 12:04:20 am
I agree that the "choices" are still being made by men.
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3/8/2018 09:51:19 pm
that comment is a real big surprise considering it comes from a woman
Melissa
4/7/2015 11:59:26 pm
Consider together, the fact that Ataturk does not give specific evidence on HOW reform was to occur, (using vague words like "virtuous" and "attributes") and the fact that women were being told to do more by working both inside and outside the home, this clearly demonstrate that Ataturk's ideas on women's rights did not actually change the status of women in Turkey.
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Donna
4/8/2015 12:04:35 am
You GO!!! When you stated this:
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Mary
4/8/2015 12:00:02 am
A lot of rhetoric was presented in his speeches but no real evidence was presented to see if women's lives were changed... What is enlightenment and learned?
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Terri Downing
4/8/2015 12:06:27 am
It would be interesting to see evidence of the point of view from the women of the time.
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Kerri
4/8/2015 12:10:52 am
I agree; the perspective of the women of the time is critical.
Case
4/8/2015 12:00:58 am
The fact that women were not given a voice in these documents (at least what we saw) illustrates the fact that Ataturk's reforms did not really improve the situation for women in Turkey. Ataturk refers to women's most "virtuous and beneficial duty" as being a good mother. This shows me that his viewpoint on women's education and rights is no different than what had been occurring in Europe and the U.S. for the past few centuries. Ataturk echoes the voices of several men before him that encourages women to be educated, but primarily for the benefit of educating their children, which we can assume they really meant for the education of their sons.
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Todd Callaway
4/8/2015 12:02:34 am
Ataturk's reforms did improve the status of women in Turkey. The reforms implemented by the Turkish leader provided that "our women must be more enlightened, more intellectual, and more learned than men if they really want to be the mother of the nation." He has elevated women to the status of the "Republican Mother" whose duty it is to instill the virtues of society into the children and nation. Based on the evidence provided in the documents Ataturk's reforms aimed at improving the status of women in Turkey by "changing viewpoints ... on the position and status of women...", according to document C. This changing viewpoint alone would improve the status of women by providing more opportunity for education and control.
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Anna B
4/8/2015 12:02:58 am
I think that Ataturk's reforms did improve the status women in Turkey, marginal improvements are still improvements and that changes in legal status that were alluded to in his speeches lead the way for long term social changes. And that symbolic changes in dress and how they keep their house become rooted in how children see themselves, and their culture, and their (or their sister's place) in society.
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Jenna K.
4/8/2015 12:03:40 am
Ataturk's reforms actually improved the status of women in Turkey because marginal improvements still count for overall improvement for women. One piece of evidence is when Ataturk states, "our women must be more enlightened, more intellectual and more learned than men." This quote can tell the reader that women are receiving an education to continue to value the skills Ataturk claims necessary for society to function. While he is vague in his description, inference shows that women are making strides in Turkey. Women understand and are encouraged to receive an education to value both career and work. Overall, women made marginal advancements in their attributes to Turkish society through opportunities made by political reform.
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Brian
4/8/2015 12:03:52 am
Ataturk's reforms did actually improve the status of women, the extent of the improvement is where the question lies. In the excerpt by Henry Allen, Allen notes that "there has been an abandonment of the veil." In addition he points out that there was an increase in schools for women.(Document B) However, Ataturk's speech did not present any evidence of actual reform, it seems that Ataturk delivered a great speech full of promises, but no real aim at reform.(Document A & C) My question lies in how much of society was changed after the reforms? A politician can claim reform and write a law, however that does not mean that the treatment of women in the home or in everyday life would shift. However, when viewing the state of education and women's rights in "hardline" Muslim states where women are not allowed to attend school, the opportunity to attend school can be seen as real transformation that will lead to greater opportunity for women in Turkey.
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Ed Ensley
4/8/2015 12:04:22 am
Ataturk's reform may have actually improved the status of women in Turkey. This is significant because of the reference to the lack of success of their society lies in the indifference towards the women, Perhaps the reference is to establish concern for taking a position in society. This could result in moving forward creating a new identiy.
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Kelly
4/8/2015 12:05:01 am
It was very difficult to see any specific evidence from the documents that women's status in Turkey did improve. It appears that Ataturk was a very good politician but what was his agenda? Did he hope that women in the workforce would benefit his political agenda? How? I agree with Melissa the word usage is very vague.
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LeAnna
4/8/2015 12:05:55 am
I think Ataturk's reforms did improve the staus of women. Basically, my thinking is that you have to start somewhere and legal reforms, educational opportunities, and simply "starting a conversation" can be a step in the right direction. On the other hand, these type of reforms are going to inevitably cause a backlash amongst conservatives so it can seem like a step backwards follows any reform. I feel like we needed to hear some more voices to form a really good opinion, so I have to rely on my own experience and background knowledge about the women's movement in the US. The texts we have available contain a lot of POV and not so much historical information, so further study is necessary. I am left with many questions, such as how does this all apply to current events, what are the religious subtleties, and what do various women think?
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Kerri
4/8/2015 12:08:15 am
After reading and discussing the provided documents it is difficult to determine whether Ataturk’s reforms actually improved the status of women in Turkey, further research is needed. The evidence did not portray what the status of women was before Ataturk, nor did it provide enough evidence to determine what the status of women was after Ataturk. If a yes no answer is a required, then I would guess that the status of women did improve on some level as lifestyle choices were introduced and became accepted.
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Andrew Wascoe
4/8/2015 12:12:42 am
Although I don't know much about the status of women in Turkey in 2015, my opinion is that anything is greater than zero.
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Melinda Webster
4/8/2015 12:14:48 am
I love that Ataturk had enough guts to take on Women Rights during the 1920's. It was risky and not popular for him to take this point of view. It could have cost him popularity with the Muslims males and could have ended his career. I feel he elevate women as having a important role in society and therefore should receive a education and equality in the workforce. I think back to the United States during this time period and women were sent back to the kitchen after males came home from the military.
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Wil
4/8/2015 12:21:42 am
I think Ataturk did his job as a politician and said and acted on what he wanted and thought was best for his nation. However, it is not the job of government to create changes. It is the job of the people who are governed to create change, so when he says that "our women must be more enlightened, more intellectual and more learned than men" he is giving a commandment that he believes will spark change. It is then the women's choice to either act or not. So, based on the evidence given I do not believe we can answer our specific compelling question. We need more information on advancements that Turkish women are seeking or what is the definition of advancement. Intellectual? Economic? Religious?
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Kami Silver
4/8/2015 12:29:05 am
I tend to think that Ataturk was trying to implement change. Ataturk was a good politician. He knew how to straddle the fence and tell people what they wanted to hear to keep his position and keep people happy. We need to keep in mind perspective. From the time period and perspective of the people Ataturk did improve women's role in society. He, as a leader and man, gave empowerment to the women who were strong enough to take hold and produce change. The women had the backing and reinforcement of a man to change what had been ingrained into them since birth. Without the courage of a man to to take a stand and produce SOME type of change, they would not have had change take place and continue life as their religion had dictated them to do so. Ataturk went about this in a very productive way. True to Islamic religion, the Shariah is their law code, which is driven by the Quran their holy text. Anyone or thing that contradicts this is, in their eyes, to be punished. He knew that to be blatant would result in him being deposed of. I hate to say it, but every good politician manipulates a situation to produce change. Even though it may be small, and even questioned for intention, he went about this easy so as not to lose his head and keep his position to help ensure change. He first started out (in Doc A) suggestive, so as to keep both men and women happy. He then goes to comparisons (Doc B) to show how and why they need to include women in society (to keep up with other nations around the world). Ataturk (in Doc C) goes to being more firm and saying the word MUST. I think he became more firm because they were not changing or "getting" it. Last, in the video the woman does speak of the conflicts, but we all know that for true change to take place it takes the courage of the population of the people. A leader can speak change all they want, but without the support of the people, that change will never take place.
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Jeanne Morris
12/10/2015 06:52:05 am
Ataturk implemented a sweeping cultural change across the whole of Turkey in an effort to modernize the nation. I believe that Ataturk was an excellent and ambitious politician who wished for Turkey to play a bigger role in the global theater. Did his restructuring of Turkish society improve the status of women in Turkey? I would argue that his restructuring created opportunities that did not previously exist for women in a country that had been heavily guided by a paternalistic Islamic law. Does forcing any gender into a social norm really hasten the idea of equality? What is the definition of equality or improved status? Alienating women from choice does not necessarily improve status even if it opens a door to the boardroom. If you take the idea of equality or improved status as meaning freedom to choose your path without consequence or judgment from your family, society, or government then no Ataturk did not improve the status of women.
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Gavin Cooper
12/10/2015 06:52:42 am
In order to adequately answer this question, we need to consider what exactly we mean by "improved status." If improved status means that women and girls have better opportunities for education and finding a place in the workforce, one might argue that their status is improved. However, if improved status refers to a more equal place within the social structure and popular perspective, I am not sure one can make that argument based on the documents we have viewed.
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Josh
12/10/2015 06:53:41 am
Ataturk's reforms did not improve the status of women in Turkey. Instead these changes and opportunities for education and work caused a lack of self-worth among them and created a status that again held women to the rule of man. Ataturk said in a speech, "... our women must be more enlightened, more intellectual, and more learned than men." The men of society then held these women to this new standard. Women were frowned upon and treated very harshly if they did not adhere to these reforms.
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